Hitler’s Radio 

7 January 2008 tbs.pm/3213

“The radio will be to the twentieth century what the press was to the nineteenth”

-Josef Goebbels, 1933.

All totalitarian states strictly control the media and broadcasters. Even in modern times, where there is now the internet and international digital broadcasting, dictatorships have found ways to strictly control what the populace watch, download and hear. In Saddam’s Iraq, access to the internet and satellite television was limited only to senior Ba’ath Party members, members of the general public were only allowed to watch state television and were banned from owning PCs with modems and from owning satellite dishes. In previous decades the Soviet Union spent millions of roubles on jamming the BBC World Service and the Voice of America. Typically in most totalitarian states the electronic media are run by a state monopoly which is controlled by the government – think of a BBC type broadcaster run from the totalitarian version of the Home Office with the senior executives chosen by the government.

Nazi Germany was the first totalitarian state to use radio as a propaganda tool and, uniquely, brought out a series of affordable radio sets – the Volksempfänger, or people’s radios – so poorer Germans, who generally did not have radios before 1933, could listen to Nazi propaganda and the infamous Nuremberg rallies, and little else.

In common with most European countries in the thirties, radio was controlled by a state monopoly, the Reich Broadcasting Corporation, that had been formed a year before Hitler came to power out of a collection of semi-commercial regional stations which had been nationalised. Under the Minister of the Interior, Erich Scholz, the creation of the Reich Broadcasting Corporation in July 1932 saw advertising banned and an emphasis placed on political programmes under government guidelines drawn up for the Corporation, rather than the trivial programming favoured by the old regional stations. In government guidelines for German radio, Scholz declared, “The German radio serves the German people. That which degrades the German people is excluded from German radio.” Although this statement came from a democratic government, albeit one in its death throes, the German nationalism implied by the government guidelines for radio had distinct Nazi overtones. It was no surprise that the State monopoly Reich Broadcasting Corporation was the most malleable part of the media when the Nazis took power in January 1933.

Hitler, and even more so Goebbels, saw the massive propaganda weapon radio could become. With the monopoly Reich Broadcasting Corporation under Nazi control, and its programmes strictly censored and made even more nationalistic than in the last days of the Weimar Republic, the radio offered the easiest way to spread Nazi propaganda. While films such as The Triumph of the Will were the most notable way the Nazis spread their propaganda, most Germans in the thirties would have first encountered the infamous Nuremberg rallies through the radio or through huge loudspeakers mounted in public places broadcasting the latest events from Nuremberg. After all, the radio offered instant propaganda, whereas a film could take several months to produce. Moreover, Hitler was not noted for being photogenic and could appear as if he was suffering from an epileptic fit when he got into his stride in front of the faithful at Nuremberg. On the radio, there was no escape from Hitler when he was broadcasting live, as the Reich Broadcasting Corporation was a monopoly and it was most politically incorrect and possibly foolhardy to turn off the Fuhrer – Hitler and Goebbels could virtually brainwash the populace with their fiery oratory and Sieg Heiling followers.

Of course, radios were too expensive for the majority of Germans in the depressed Germany Hitler inherited. Soon after achieving power the Nazis decided to introduce an affordable radio, the Volksempfänger, ” the people’s receiver”, so Nazi propaganda and approved broadcasts, consisting of news, propaganda, volkische (folk) music and classical music (the Reich Broadcasting Corporation was banned from playing populist “negroid” music such as jazz and music by Jewish composers and songwriters) could reach a mass audience. In 1939, by which time the Volksempfänger had made radio a mass commodity, the Nazi propagandist Artur Freudenberg declared, “It is imperative in the political interest of the state not only that the whole nation participates in broadcasting, but that the entire nation is ready to receive radio programmes at any moment.”

Thus in 1933 the Nazis decided to subsidise the production of radio sets and instructed the leading manufacturers of radios such as Siemens and Telefunken to produce Volksempfänger over more expensive sets.

The sets were designed by Otto Griessing on the order of Josef Goebbels, and were sold under the Volksempfänger, Deutscher Klein Empfänger (DKE), Gemeinschaftsempfänger, and Kraft durch Freude (KdF) brand names.

The first Volks Empfänger, the three-valve VE301 (the number 301 signified the 30th January 1933, the day Hitler took power in Germany), was produced in 1933. The radio sold for 76 Reichsmarks, around half the price of a typical radio at the time. It was a simple two band set: few Volksempfänger came with short wave, and they generally had limited sensitivity so as to receive only local stations, as the Nazis were worried listeners could pick up broadcasts from the Soviet Union or Britain. The dials were only marked with German stations.

Several versions of the VE301 were made, including some with bakelite cabinetry instead of the original wood to reduce costs, varying in price between 65 and 87 RM. Then in 1938, the Deutscher Klein Empfänger (small set), nicknamed “Goebbels’ Schnauze” ( Goebbels’ Snout) by the public, was introduced. The two-valve DKE1938 was a low-powered regenerative receiver selling for 35 RM, featuring loudspeaker and valves specially designed for the set. It was the the most popular Volksempfänger and the cheapest radio in the world. A representation of it appears on the cover of the 1975 Kraftwerk album, Radio-Activity.

Between 1933 and 1939 over 7 million Volksempfänger were produced, over 40 per cent of total radio production in Germany, and production levels remained high well into the War. Compared with the Volkswagen of popular imagination, which was introduced a year before the war and of which very few were made, the Volksempfänger was the Nazi’s most successful ‘people’s product’.

Of course, even the production and sale of a radio set had a political role the Third Reich. While in other countries radios would be sold on their design, price and sound quality, the rather basic Volksempfänger was used as a propaganda tool. A popular advert for the radio showed a Nuremberg rally style crowd standing around a photograph of a Volksempfänger with the slogan, “The whole of Germany hears the Führer with the Volksempfänger.”

The radios themselves all had an eagle and swastika stamped on the front; larger versions were often rigged up to loudspeakers to provide saturation coverage of a major Nazi speech or the Nuremberg rallies. (Even if you were unwilling to tune your radio into the latest speech by Hitler, escape from his rantings, unless you took to a mountain top or a cave, was almost impossible as loudspeakers were in position in almost every public place, turned to a high volume.) As the war neared, production of Volksempfänger took precedence over more powerful sets with short wave reception and the Nazis encouraged the populace to replace sets with short wave with the less powerful Volksempfänger.

At the start of the war the propaganda role of the Volksempfänger took a more sinister twist. As hostilities broke out between Germany and the Allies in September 1939, listening to enemy radio stations became punishable by a sentence in a concentration camp. All radios sold came with a chilling warning attached to the tuning knob, “Think about this: listening to foreign broadcasts is a crime against the national security of our people. It is a Führer order punishable by prison and hard labour.”

Later in the war the Gestapo was instructed to execute anyone discovered listening to enemy radio stations, and ran a particularly vindictive campaign where it advertised for sale radios with short wave bands and then arrested and shot anyone who was duped into buying one as a traitor. Officially the only people who were allowed to listen to foreign broadcasts were the SS and Abwehr (army intelligence) for intelligence purposes and members of the Nazi Party who were given special permission to use more powerful radios to listen out for and disown Allied propaganda.

Of course, unofficially many Germans took the risk, especially those who owned more powerful pre-war radios, and listened to Allied radio in secret. As the war progressed, the Reich Broadcasting Corporation was severely censored and was not allowed to discuss even the slightest hint that Germany was losing the war, even as late as 1944 when Germany was being hammered by air raids and the Allies were attacking the Reich on both sides. In addition to Luftwaffe pilots, who often tuned into the BBC and American forces stations as a form of light relief from the endless propaganda and volkische music on German stations – at least the Gestapo could not arrest you in the air – concerned German citizens, anti Nazis and many servicemen whose lives depended on accurate news decided that the risk was worthwhile by tuning into Allied broadcasts to find out how Germany was really faring.

Even the humble Kleine Volksempfänger was not as weak as the Nazis would have liked. All versions came with long wave, which meant that, if you understood English or Russian, the BBC or Radio Moscow could be picked quite easily after dark, and many who wanted to hear how the war was really progressing increased the power of a Volksempfänger by inserting makeshift wire aerials in the back or increasing the sensitivity of the set. ( The Allies also set up anti-Nazi propaganda stations in German such as People’s Radio. ) One soldier stationed in Austria in 1944, who regularly listened to People’s Radio recalled, as his commanding officer was explaining that the Allies had landed in Normandy “Our officer had been explaining the Allies strategies and the possible options for cutting Normandy off from the rest of France. Suddenly one of my comrades said, “It’s already happened.” After a few seconds, the officer asked,” How do you know that- the OKW (army high command) has not announced this”. No explanation was necessary: we sat there like sodden, wet dogs.” Fortunately the soldiers hid the makeshift aerial before the officer examined the set and they escaped certain death as the officer could not prove where the information had come from.

However, loyalty to the Nazi regime and a fear of being caught persuaded millions of others that listening to broadcasters other than the Reich Broadcasting Corporation was too much of a risk. There was always a chance of being informed on to the Gestapo if you talked about a news item that deviated from the official radio line. Even as late as April 1945, when the Allies were surrounding Berlin and Hitler was hiding in the Bunker, Berlin Radio, broadcasting from the shattered ruins of the city, was still declaring that Germany was soon to win a historic battle against the Allies, and Goebbels defiantly told listeners that the course of war was turning in Germany’s favour on Hitler’s birthday, April 20th. As the Allies smashed through the remains of Germany in 1945, many Germans, until they saw Allied soldiers arrive in their towns and cities, had been unaware that Germany was losing the war. It was not until Berlin Radio announced that Hitler was dead that many Germans were finally convinced the war was lost. The Volksempfänger had played its part in deceiving and intimidating millions of Germans throughout the war.

The Nazi regime and the production of Volksempfänger died with Hitler, but the radio had an important role to play in building up the prosperity of the future West Germany. A penniless electrical engineer Max Grundig decided to chance his arm by selling and repairing Volksempfänger in the immediate post-war period. With Germany shattered, almost no new radios being produced and with most of the populace too poor to afford new radios anyway, Grundig saw an ideal business opportunity by selling and repairing the radios at rock-bottom prices in 1946. Two years later, and with a gradual move in the West to restore non-military German manufacturing industry, the money Grundig had made from his second hand radio business allowed him to develop his own Grundig radio.

By the end of the fifties Grundig had become one of the biggest manufacturing companies in Germany and Max Grundig’s tape recorders, radios and televisions were soon developing an international reputation for quality and reasonable prices. Although the Grundig corporation has faltered in recent years, for decades, a company that started as a one-man business repairing Nazi radios was one of the most successful electrical companies in the world. I own a Grundig portable radio and it is ironic that if it wasn’t for the Nazis, something as innocent as this cheap radio would not exist. However, I would start to worry if Hitler’s speeches appeared instead of Jeremy Vine.

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41 responses to this article

Roger Tidy 9 January 2011 at 12:59 pm

An interesting article. However, it is not correct to say that Nazi Germany was the first totalitarian state to use radio as a propaganda tool. The USSR and Italy were doing so in the 1920s, some ten years before Hitler came to power.

Moreover, concerning the Nazi ban on playing jazz on the radio, this was not as rigidly applied as one might think. Jazz was often played on the external service of the German Radio and there was even a ‘licensed’ jazz band created for this purpose known as Charlie and his Orchestra.

Finally, the Allied ‘People’s Radio’ that is mentioned, which scooped the German High Command in announcing the D-Day invasion, was actually the British clandestine station ‘Soldatensener Calais’ (Soldiers’ Transmitter, Calais) which operated from studios in Bedfordshire and used a powerful medium-wave station at Crowborough in Sussex. This was one of many British clandestine stations targeting Germany, but none were called ‘People’s Radio’.

I have just written a study of the external service of the Nazi radio, ‘Hitler’s Radio War’, which will be available on January 31st. It’s available from the publisers, Robert Hale, or from Amazon and ‘all good book shops’.

Roger Tidy

Wilma Reitz 13 January 2011 at 4:37 pm

I am currently working on a manuscript that I hope to publish in book form in 2011. The topic is “Robert Henry Best” who was convicted of treason in a USA federal court in 1948. Best had broadcast propaganda for Hitler via short-save from 1942-1945. I have been searching for articles/books on WWII radio history and therefore read with interest “Hitler’s Radio” and the comments by Roger Tidy. I look forward to reading his book.

I have a request. How can I obtain permission to publish the two images in this article: the old-time radio and the German Poster image?

Thank you. Wilma W. Reitz, Greenville, SC USA

Roger Tidy 13 February 2011 at 5:21 pm

My book “Hitler’s Radio War” has now been published and is available from the publishers, Robert Hale Ltd., at http://www.halebooks.com.

Roger Tidy

Wilma W. Reitz 30 May 2011 at 4:57 am

Thanks for alerting me to the publication of your book. I just today picked up your comment. I will purchase a copy. Good luck. 05/29/2011

Wilma W. Reitz

bhutta 13 November 2011 at 4:11 pm

doing research on iqbal shedai and his speeches from himalaya radio…. request to roger tidy for scripts of shedai speeches…….

Declan 24 March 2012 at 11:09 pm

Hi Roger; My friend has Hitler’s Blaupunkt radio from Eagle’s Nest. He is old and would like to sell it. Regards, Declan

Adam Laubenbacher 19 May 2012 at 4:45 pm

How much would he like to sell it for?

Declan Breffny 22 May 2012 at 1:38 am

He has no idea what it is worth. Would you have an idea. He has paperwork with the date and circumstances that allowed him to be in a position to take it as a photographer for the U.S. Army. Regards, Declan

Hue Miller 19 June 2012 at 12:49 am

There are numerous annoying inaccuracies in this article that with any research would not have appeared. Just for the first i encountered:

All VE and DKE did not have the swastika logo. There were some built for export and those bore the maker’s logo instead. I have such a DKE38 from Telefunken, built for export to Sweden. Radio’s knobs were not marked with a warning label. Many radios built for the Wehrmacht troops broadcast listening, bore a label warning that listening to enemy broadcasts was illegal – but not all radios were so marked. For one example, the Blaupunkit built WR-1/P bore the warning tag. From at least 1942 on no more radios were built for the general public. Shortwave radios for the public were not sold throughout the war and it’s silly to imagine some kind of lure to trap buyers. What nonsense. The punishment for being caught listening to foreign broadcasts was something like one year in prison, not concentration camp. “World at War” in one episode on the “Home Front” discussed this issue. In addition, i have an article in a German listener’s magazine which discusses the penalties. The death penalty only applied in cases where the accused not only listened but spread the enemy propaganda to other people. German soldiers did use shortwave radios to listen to troop entertainment broadcasts and the radios themselves were supplied with lists of approved stations, both medium wave and shortwave.

My question is, why include nonfactual items in the article which derive from hearsay?

Declan Breffny 19 June 2012 at 11:33 pm

Hue Miller; I do not get your message. All that I am saying is that a friend has Hitler’s OWN radio taken from Eagle’s Nest towards the end of the war. The date, soldier’s name and Division can be backed by History records. He is interested in selling it and open to any ideas as to what it may be worth. Regards, Declan

Hue Miller 20 June 2012 at 7:58 am

Declan, i apologize to you if it seems i was critiquing your post. My comments apply only to the original text article above, because of the nonfactual bunk mixed in it. Regarding the radio your friend has, i’d say, put it on Ebay and let the market decide what it’s worth. -Hue

Declan Breffny 20 June 2012 at 12:35 pm

Thankyou Hue for your suggestion. Regards, Declan

Edward 4 July 2012 at 4:06 am

Dear Declan,

I read with interest your post about the radio – I have the perfect buyer – my brother, who is an historian and collector and can easily verify the documents you speak of. You can contact me at mitavec [at] comcast [dot] net

He is willing to pay your asking price if indeed the radio’s provenance is certain.

regards, Edward

Declan Breffny 8 July 2012 at 11:28 pm

Hi Edward; I e-mailed you last week, but I have not heard back from your brother. Is your e-mail mitavecatcomcastdotnet or mitavec [at] comcast [dot] net Regards, Declan

Russ J Graham 9 July 2012 at 10:15 am

It’s our policy to prevent spam by munging email addresses. You need to type the email address like you type all email addresses, replacing [at] with an @ and [dot] with a .

Declan Breffny 9 July 2012 at 11:56 am

Thanks Russ.

manoj 15 September 2013 at 8:29 pm


We purchased a radio that fits the description given in your article. Ours has only an eagle emblem no swastika. Its a Bakelite model in excellent condition. Is it collectible do you think. The history behind it is mind boggling.

Wilma Reitz 25 January 2014 at 3:40 pm

I have just finished reading Kurt Vonnegut’s Mother Night about a fictious American citizen who broadcast for Hitler. This book of fiction told of German citizens having listened to his broadcasts and who had put him on a pedestal as a true Nazi. My question: Did Germans hear these broadcasts that were intended for allied countries? Does anyone know the answer?

Russ J Graham 25 January 2014 at 6:09 pm

There were propaganda broadcasts both to and from Germany during the war – Germany having taken Luxembourg and its huge array of short, medium and longwave transmitters. Germans could listen to broadcasts made by the Nazis to other countries, but largely didn’t. The majority listened to their local Reichssender station, providing propaganda and entertainment in German, because their sets were pre-tuned by the government to that station and penalties for tampering with them were harsh. A minority – quite large, according to BBC research immediately after the war – was listening to the BBC German Service, with even committed Nazis expressing appreciation for the less-biased reporting that the BBC offered (the BBC reports of Allied defeats were thought of as more accurate than Nazi reports of Axis victories, it seems).

But as for citizens of Nazi Germany listening to foreign-language broadcasts giving pro-Nazi propaganda? Possible to do, unlikely that many bothered.

Roger Tidy 24 April 2014 at 5:39 pm

German radios were not usually pre-tuned to a set frequency. In fact, I don’t know of any examples when that happened. Could you please give me your sources for that comment?

Petr 26 July 2014 at 4:16 pm

Apart from the shortwave broadcasts, as early as in 1940 the BBC European service and later also the US radio services were transmitted to Germany in the German language also via medium waves and long waves, on frequencies like 1149 kHz, 200 kHz etc.

So even without shortwave receivers, after sunset when the long and in particular the medium waves are much easier to receive, the medium and long wave receivers in Germany could still receive broadcasts in German language.

Roger Tidy 22 November 2014 at 12:27 pm

BBC broadcasts in German started in 1938 during the Munich crisis. The previous contributor is correct in stating that these broadcasts were on medium and long waves as well as shortwave.

Artemis 26 January 2015 at 7:26 pm

I’m writing the life of a woman who was a continuity announcer with the BBC, not at Broadcasting House but in Oxford Circus, in what was the Peter Robinson building. She had to play records and live concerts and read news bulletins from 8pm to 4am, during the summer of 1944. The most important thing, she was told, was never to allow more than 15 seconds of ‘dead air’ (presumably that means silence?) or the Germans might take over that radio frequency and start using it themselves. Is this true? Was it ever done? I’d be very grateful for any details.

Peter Penketh 27 January 2015 at 4:02 pm

Haven’t heard that story (Artemis 26 Jan) but have heard that the BBC did it to the Germans. Seemingly the Germans would take local radio stations, e.g. Dresden, off air to warn of impending air raids, The BBC, who were expecting it, would immediately “take over” that frequency and relay the same programme that they were monitoring on another station. They might have even included an announcement to reassure listeners they were the real station. Apparently, they got so good at it “you couldn’t see the join”. Good story if it’s true.

keith martin 15 February 2015 at 6:02 pm

If i remember correctly, Peter Robinson had a shop on Oxford Circus. The BBC had studios in the next block and on the same side. After WW2 the shop block was empty until C&A moved in.

Mahendra 22 March 2015 at 11:13 am

Amazing, what similar happenings in india

Roger Tidy 17 June 2015 at 6:21 pm

It was not the BBC that hijacked German frequencies but the Political Warfare Executive, using a 500 kilowatt transmitter near Crowborough, Sussex. There were also many occasions on which the Soviet Union broadcast anti-Hitler comments on German frequencies.

As far as I know, there are no authenticated cases of the Germans intruding onto BBC frequencies, but there were several occasions when such intrusions took place which were believed to have been done by the Italians.

Mike 29 July 2015 at 12:50 pm

The notion that the Volksempfanger was pre-tuned or otherwise unable to get foreign stations is one of those myths that refuses to die.

True they only had German (and after 1938 Austrian) stations marked on the dial (on the more expensive versions -cheaper models didn’t bother with a proper dial at all). But apart from attempts (with limited success) to jam such stations and scare stories about detector vans looking for telltale local oscillators (cheaper Volksempfangers used TRF circuitry) there was little they could do to stop determined (but discreet) listeners.

The punishments for listening to foreign stations tended to become more draconian as the war dragged on and also varied among the various countries occupied by the Germans in the Channel Islands for example listening to the BBC was initially banned, then tolerated for a period before being banned again -later all listening by non-German citizens was banned backed up by mass seizures of sets. In various parts of Europe (Including Germany itself) people did end up in concentration camps (or were simply shot) for listening to enemy stations or illegally possessing sets.

British intelligence did uncover a plan by the Germans for broadcasts “impersonating the BBC” which was to have been put into operation immediately prior to an invasion of Britain. This is why the (previously anonymous) BBC newsreaders began announcing their names at the start of each bulletin. Some wartime reports refer to an Italian “mocking voice” which appeared during breaks on the Forces programme but this seems to have been regarded as a minor irritation.

Marco Hofschneider 28 September 2016 at 2:16 pm

Wrong! Neither the VE301 W, the VE301 G, the VE301 B2, the VE301 GW nor the VE301 WN had any visible swastika….only a simple eagle stamped into the bakelite directly beneath the tuning dial. Only two sets that looked completely different had swastikas being held by eagles stamped into the bakelite cabinets. These two sets were the VE301 dyn and the DKE38, both of which are in smaller square bakelite cabinets with completely different knobs and radically different tuning dials. In other words, the famous publicity poster stating, “all of Germany listens to the Führer with the Volksempfänger” is indeed displaying a VE301 W with NO swastika!

Paul Rusling 8 November 2016 at 12:16 am

During the war the worlds most powerful radio station was assembled at Ottringham Near Hull. It had 800,000 watts capability and could be heard clearly in Berlin during the day. It was also used to broadcast Radio Free Orange to the Netherlands.

Paul Rusling 8 November 2016 at 12:17 am

During the war the worlds most powerful radio station was assembled at Ottringham Near Hull. It had 800,000 watts capability and could be heard clearly in Berlin during the day. It was also used to broadcast Radio Free Orange to the Netherlands.

Wayne Cayford 27 January 2017 at 1:22 am

What will radio programming for voice of America sound like when the rumps stooges take over their airways?

Jean Bernard Hebey 4 August 2017 at 6:54 pm

I’m currently writing a book about industrial design to be published in France with an exhibition with 100 masterpieces of design.Thanks for all the infos in your article. Great !

Don Foster 6 October 2017 at 4:41 pm

I read in one of Alan Furst’s novels that German citizens were required to listen to daily radio broadcasts by Hitler and could be arrested if they did not.
Do you have any information on that? Thanks.

Jamila Gavin 19 November 2017 at 10:59 am

Was it possible for anyone in Britain surfing short wave in their own homes, to pick up bulletins from Nazi occupied countries eg: Holand, Belgium etc.in 1940? eg: During and after Dunkirk.

Hotspur 4 April 2019 at 1:29 am

I understand that Nazi radio was listened to in the UK in the evenings all the time. It was fairly easy to receive from Hamburg. American soldiers especially were fascinated by the propaganda and openly mocked the broadcasts. They did like the dance music shows though. It got so much attention that the BBC had to set up their first light entertainment channel just to get people listening to them (instead of Lord Haw Haw)…

Jerry williams 1 July 2019 at 12:53 am

Do you have any broadcast made by Robert best mr. Guess who.

Tony 26 March 2020 at 6:02 am

First was not Germany – first was USSR

Mark Garton 9 November 2022 at 9:45 pm

I own a kleinemfanger radio the back is missing and the control knobs are rusted on its very cheaply made uses a paxolin chassis the film a bridge too far shows one of these radios interesting that kraftwerke used a drawing of this radio o also own a 1155 day radio I will try to repair it watching war films I was always interested in seeing soldiers and spices using radio equipment and sending morse this caused me to become a radio amateur I also own a radio from a tank its built in heavy solid case it’s called an r209 I even own a clock from a ju88

Mark Garton 28 January 2023 at 7:17 pm

I own a dke38 radio its very cheap looking radio the kraftwerke albumn radioactivity had a drawing of a dke38 on it the film bridge at remagen has one of these radios in it I also own a clock from a ju88 not sure about morality of owning things made by nazis but I also own a British r1155 radio these are very common and looks well made I need to get it working

Russ J Graham 28 January 2023 at 10:21 pm

There are no moral questions when it comes to owning something that happened to be produced by a totalitarian regime – even the worst one in history! If it gives you pleasure and you don’t share the awful ideology then that’s fine.

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